Talk:Vingkotlings
I think Peter has a different definition about Vingkotling. Some star tribes might not be Vingkotling as Durevings and other people which joined to the kingdom of Orlanth later. Terra incognita 02:27, August 10, 2011 (UTC) We don't have any Dureving tribal names we can clearly point to as Durevings. While one can speculate, this isn't the place for that. Garanvuli and Sedenorvuli appear in the lists as Vingkotling tribes. Jorganos 03:36, August 10, 2011 (UTC) Careful here. Where do the Garanvuli and the Sedenorvili appear as Vingkotling tribes? That the Garanvuli were Vingkotlings is plausible because the Hidden Kings were based at Iliastead, the Garanvuli capital - which also accounts for the mysterious five generation gap between Garan and Sevanrolar, the second Garanvuli King. The Book of Heortling Mythology is far less than clear about Sedenor even going so far as to state that he was Dawn Age. Metcalph 08:09, August 10, 2011 (UTC) Ok. This list here even omits Liornvuli and Forosivuli: The Tribes of the Vingkotlings, listing only the nine original tribes. Jorganos 13:59, August 10, 2011 (UTC) Definition of Vingkotling? *Vingkotling Tribes are those formed using Vingkot's methods of rulership. Direct patrilineal descent from Vingkot doesn't appear to be required. *Durevings and Helerings appear to have accepted Vingkot as their high king. No idea whether they extended this to Kodig. If not, the Vingkotlings would have been those people who accepted the line of Vingkot, i.e. the Kodigvari kings, as their rulers. *On Jorri (and other obscure groups of peoples happening to live in Ernaldela and accepting Orlanth's and Vingkot's protection) would have been allowed to join Vingkotling tribes adopting their ways, but separate groups of these people would not have been counted as Vingkotlings. *Four types of Vingkotling tribes exist: The royal tribe (suffix -vari), the summer tribes (suffix -tes), the winter tribes (suffix -telli) and the star tribes (suffix -vuli) *The Esro(l)vuli use the -vuli suffix as well despite breaking with the Vingkotling ways. (Or did the other Vingkotling tribes use the -vuli suffix to describe them to indicate a group formed of Vingkotlings after the original tribes, and the Esrolians called themselves as something like Imarjans?) The Star Tribes are a category of the Vingkotling tribes, and both Garan and Serias are star captains descending to save (and create) a tribe, during the Greater Darkness. Both are listed as original tribes of the Heortlings, and besides them only winter tribes, summer tribes, the other "star tribes" Forosilvuli and Liornvuli and the Stravuli (a bit problematic, see below) are listed. The successor tribes of the Jorganostelli would have been Vingkotlings. Stravul (I have some doubts about that name... the -vuli suffix indicates a Star Tribe, having a hero whose name just happens to form the same ending for a tribe named after him sort of reeks of intention by the name-givers) clearly was the leader of his survivor group of the Jorganostelli, Vingkotlings regardless whether they were a tribe at that time or just a clan. The Deleskarings certainly had Vingkotling origins (another splinter group of the Jorganostelli). Their exclusion from the list of original Heortling tribes probably means that they were not involved in the Unity Battle and Heort's (and Argan Argar's) network of communication. They managed to survive to the Dawn, and possibly were one of the first groups contacted by Theyalan missionaries. Jarani clearly lived after the death of his ancestor, since he wielded his bow. His people seem to have vanished, maybe bound to the Other Side by the subsequent Lawstaff Quests. What is the source for Liorn and Forosil being star captains? I see them as powerful Lastralgortelli who survived the destruction of Lastralgor's warband (probably by being too young to participate in the raid - "Liorn the Young") who were looking after groups of their kinsfolk, wedding daughters of the high king (proving themselves worthy in mighty quests, yadda yadda) and thereby getting a good start for their new tribes. Jorganos 13:53, August 10, 2011 (UTC) Liorn and Forosil are described as Star Captains in the Book of Heortling Mythology p88. Your definition of Vingkotling Tribes as those that use the Vingkotling means of succession is too sweeping to be useful for the wiki as there are Heortling tribes that use Vingkotling means in historical times whereas the Vingkotlings are a specific Orlanthi culture defined in time and space. The definition of a Star Tribe is one that was founded by a Star Captain. One can have a Star Tribe without being a Vingkotling Tribe and the Stravuli are described as not being associated with the House of Vingkot. The Helerings only accepted Orlanth, not Vingkot. They are described as one of the Three Great Tribes of the Vingkotling Age, not one of the three great tribes of the Vingkotlings. The Galanini are not so mentioned which means their conversion came later. Metcalph 04:59, August 11, 2011 (UTC) I should correct myself and say that the Dureving as a Great Tribe is probably an error made by scholars of Dragon Pass ignorant of the Galanini. Metcalph 05:02, August 11, 2011 (UTC) Durevings and Helerings at the Dawn This is pure speculation... Both Durevings and Helerings lived mostly south and west of Kerofinela. The only Dawn Survival Sites listed for that region except Vingkotling groups or Esrolians are the Pelaskites of Karse and Amphobos, the Caladralanders of Solung Plateau, the Ditali and the Harandings. The Wenelians and Slontans were contacted later and aren't listed. Clearly not all of these groups were part of the Unity Battle group (e.g. the Talastari), which means they skipped the Silver Age and even the Dawning in ignorant repetition of their Darkness Survival methods. The Argan Argar traders did not make productive contact with them. The Pelaskites most likely have some Helering roots, but the role of Orstan in their myths might give them some Dureving ancestry, too. Harandings, Ditali and more western Manirians probably are descended from Durevings, with coastal folk including Helering ancestry. Other minority survivors in the north look like "people from On Jorri" to me, or Pelorian immigrants after the Flood (like the Sidarsi). Jorganos 14:13, August 10, 2011 (UTC) I think the idea of the Durevings living mainly south and west of Kerofinela is an error (one made by the Orlanthi themselves) over the myth the Great Migration Downland. Put simply it's rather odd that Orlanth is in a quest to find his mumsy when simple biology indicates that Dini is another name for KeroFin. The myth of the Great Migration then becomes better understood as an evolution of Orlanthi society over the ages from the simple wanders to the Dureving culture and later on the Vingkotlings and successor cultures. Thus the On Jorri and other people were Dureving societies. I place the Helerings in Maniria and see them as ancestral to the Wenelians (and perhaps the Caladrans). When the seas receded, they used their powers of marine transformation to turn themselves into other peoples. I do not think the Pelaskosites are Helerings as Storm Tribe says when the seas receded, Pelaskos followed them while Poverri remained behind. Thus the Pelaskosites are Vingkotling migrants, rather than Helerings. I don't see anything in culture of the Harandings, Ditali and other peoples that has Dureving Elements. Durev is associated with stead-holding and which is best found in the Vingkotling and Heortling way of life. Metcalph 05:22, August 11, 2011 (UTC) Source References Thanks for your concern. What I can say more about this topic, you omit the some names in the clan questionaire in Orlanth is Dead! and Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, intentionally or unintentionally. How about the Nalda Bin and Forosto Jann? Sartar apparently listed the names of the Star Tribes.Terra incognita 15:07, August 10, 2011 (UTC) The five tribes (Liornvuli, Forosilvuli, Stravuli, Garanvuli and Sedenorvuli ) all had founders who "came down from the heavens." (Sartar p.46) I think it is enough to be they are labelled as Star Tribes. But not sure about they also belong to Vingkotling.Terra incognita 03:30, August 11, 2011 (UTC)